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Offline Only Lilly

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Re: Gender X
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2019, 15:51:18 »
I think we have to take into consideration that we are continually evolving and who is to say that out genitalia will not have to dictate our sexuality, we certainly not at that point but we are moving in that direction. 


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Offline Nimbus

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Re: Gender X
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2019, 15:59:24 »
I think we have to take into consideration that we are continually evolving and who is to say that out genitalia will not have to dictate our sexuality, we certainly not at that point but we are moving in that direction.

While I feel like the Sex vs. Sexuality debate is a bit different, I definitely get where you're coming from. But it's because I agree that we're not at that point that I feel like it's unrealistic to try to classify 'using the incorrect pronouns' as verbal assault, especially when dealing with long-standing societal norms.

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Offline ShaneGoesArd

Re: Gender X
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2019, 16:54:18 »
This whole argument fascinates me, and I must say that for the most part, I don't really get it. I get that people don't feel comfortable in their biological gender/sex, and therefore identify as the opposite, even going as far as transitioning. But I don't get the whole gender 'X' thing. I mean what other genders are there?

Looking up the definition of Gender gives me this.

Gender -

1. the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).

2. GRAMMAR
(in languages such as Latin, French, and German) each of the classes (typically masculine, feminine, common, neuter) of nouns and pronouns distinguished by the different inflections which they have and which they require in words syntactically associated with them. Grammatical gender is only very loosely associated with natural distinctions of sex.

So looking at the first definition (the second deals with the linguistic definition) it seems clear that there are only 2 genders. But then you get into the whole intersex (previously known as Hermaphrodites) side of things. People born with 2 sets of genitalia or people who "do not fit the typical definitions for male or female bodies". How can they be tied to a specific gender? So I guess this is what Gender 'X' indicates. So based on that, having the option for Gender X available on Birth Certificates is a good thing.

As to whether or not it's a mental health disorder, I would say, a lot of trans people that I've spoke with or heard about do suffer from some form of MHD. whether that's caused by their gender identity crisis or the cause of it, who knows, that's a discussion for smarter minds than mine.

Now the question I have, and it's one that has been troubling me for a while is, ARE TRAPS GAY?

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Offline Powerless

Re: Gender X
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2019, 03:38:51 »
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@Nimbus - I loved your post. Super interesting. Here's my take.

According to Oxford Dictionary, gender is defined as "either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female."

So, finding a definition that includes terms outside the realm of just "male" and "female" is possible. And I agree with you for the most part that "male" and "female" are terms relating to the genitalia of a particular individual. If you have a penis or XY chromosomes, you're biologically "male" and if you have a vagina or XX chromosomes, you're a biological "female." The problem that I have is that these terms have also become synonymous with gender due to the constant association with the cultural standard appearance of a biological male or female. If a woman were to cut her hair short, where clothes that society deems as clothes for men, chose to wear no makeup, etc., people passing by could refer to her as a man or "him" or "her" or a "boy" or a "male." This obviously has nothing to do with her anatomy but because of her appearance or perceived gender.

And again I agree with you when you say we are assigned sex at birth, not gender. But because of misinformation, ignorance, or rudeness, people will use the terms "sex" and "gender" interchangeably and make it seem otherwise. An example of this would be gender reveal parties. They should be called sex reveal parties but because of terminology like this being used so interchangeably for the aforementioned reasons, progress is difficult.

I disagree with your statement that it isn't disrespectful to refer to someone with the pronoun you choose rather than the one you prefer. You state that "'he' and 'she' both contain the sex terms male and female in their definitions, so calling someone that has the corresponding genitals 'he' or 'she' is accurate" but ignore the fact that again, the terms "he" and "she" are typically referring to a person's gender or perceived gender, as I stated in the example above. The problem again is not having different terminology to refer to different things... the subject becomes confusing, people use terms incorrectly or interchangeably, and then it becomes so taboo to a culture to question long standing traditions, no matter how wrong they are, that people refuse to do so. I also think it takes an extremely open mind, a well educated person, and a person who has done their research on terminology, science, social science, etc. to even have a discussion about this topic which I don't think most people have (again, making this difficult).

It is possible to have a spectrum that includes areas where we do not have a terms for. This exists all over the world yet that doesn't delegitimize the idea of the spectrum existing. Happiness is a spectrum, yet two people who describe themselves as being "happy" probably don't fall exactly on the same point of the spectrum as the other person. We have many terms for certain areas on the spectrum too - glad, happy, ecstatic, etc., but you could easily argue that there are not nearly enough terms to accurately describe how people are feeling. This does not delegitimize the spectrum of feeling though; people will just choose an adjective that they see most accurately reflects what they're feeling. This can be the same as with gender. The reason you get a load of "him" and "her" answers as opposed to individual answers for all 7.5B+ people is because terms have not been created and widely accepted and these commonplace terms closely most closely reflect the individual's identity. As I stated in my first post, you cannot think a thought that does not have a word or words associated with it. If you've read 1984, this is shown through the government making the dictionary smaller and smaller every year. As they remove words from the public's vocabulary, they cannot think certain thoughts. If words like "rebellion" or "uprising" or any combination of words didn't exist, people cannot think those thoughts.

I think everything would be much more simple to understand if we would just come out with terminology to distinguish sex and gender and what denotes each. It would take some time for the public to adopt the ways of thinking, but I think it would help a lot. I also think it would be mocked a lot though as well.

For biological terminology, set rules such as:
If a person is born with XY chromosomes, they're referred to as ______
If a person is born with XX chromosomes, they're referred to as ______
If a person is born with a penis, they're referred to as _____
If a person is born with a vagina, they're referred to as _____
If a person is born with both a penis and vagina, they're referred to as _____
If a person is born without a penis or vagina, they're referred to as _____
If a person was born with a penis but transitioned to a vagina, they're referred to as _____
If a person was born with a vagina but transitioned to a penis, they're referred to as _____

And then there would need to be terminology to refer to different genders with COMPLETELY DIFFERENT words than those used to describe the biological terms above.

Just my thoughts right now. I'm not super educated on the topic and my positions may be different if I were more educated but these are my initial thoughts.

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Offline Nimbus

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Re: Gender X
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2019, 06:24:03 »
@Powerless I appreciate your taking the time to type out a response. There are a few things that you said that I disagree with, and some that I agree with as well.

The thing that I would like to point out first is an idea I tried to address in my first post, and you actually touched on in your response: I do not agree that the terms have 'become synonymous', they're just overwhelmingly misused. A person, or even a society, improperly using a word, however confidently, does not change its meaning. The definition that you offered up for gender even leads with 'either of the two sexes (male and female)'. So on the point of sex and gender being synonymous, I cannot agree.

I find it kind of amusing that you chose so-called gender reveals as an example of illustrating your point here. I actually exclusively refer to them as 'so-called gender reveals' or simply 'reveals' because, as you stated, they're actually sex reveals, so that was an interesting matter of circumstance, lol.

The fourth block of text you responded with is where I take the most issue with your response, namely in that you claim that I said something I didn't and that I feel like I did a poor job conveying what I meant in one other area.

I never said that I don't think it's disrespectful to refer to someone someone as a pronoun that 'I choose' as opposed to the pronoun the person prefers, so that's not a statement of mine that you can disagree with, lol. In fact, the only thing that I said I didn't find disrespectful with regard to using (the reason for italicization will be clarified shortly) pronouns when referring to another person was accurate pronouns on the basis of the person's sex. And I feel like you and I will have to largely disagree on this point, because again, you feel like it's a lack of more gender-specific terminology; I feel like the 'typically referring to...' comments you make do not change 'he' and 'she' from descriptors of sex to descriptors of gender by virtue of how commonly they're misused.

The point that I do not feel like I did a good job of explaining what I meant on was what I initially said doesn't amount to being disrespectful which was effectively not using a person's preferred pronouns. But not using the pronouns they prefer does not, at least for me, mean that I have to use any pronouns at all. Personally, in cases of a person demanding me to use an improper sex pronoun, I won't use any pronouns and will opt instead to use their first name in place of every pronoun that I would have used.

Moving on from there, I also never said that anything delegitimizes the existence of a gender spectrum. In fact, I led that section explicitly stating that I felt like gender was more of a spectrum. What I said was that acknowledging the reality of gender existing on a spectrum takes some legitimacy from the argument for the accommodation of gender pronouns.

But I do find it interesting that you chose to provide emotion specifically as another example of a spectrum because, again, it's ironic that it would be me you'd be having the conversation with when you made the choice. When I use 'feeling words' I rarely settle for a generic 'happy', 'sad', etc. options. I actively try to use the word that most closely fits exactly what I'm feeling, and if I'm unable to, I explain it.

For this particular point though, again, I feel like I failed to clarify a broader point that I was making that ultimately amounts to the fact that I sort of agree with you here. It makes my skin crawl that 'they', 'them', and 'their' have been have been adopted as would-be non-binary gender pronouns. Part of this is because, as I've stated, I don't view 'he' and 'she' as being gender pronouns. The other part is because, until somewhat recently, those were viewed as being plural pronouns. Not sure if you read my introduction post, but I cannot let myself accept an individual as being plural. Just can't do it, lol. The part that I agree with you on to an extent is that the 'closest to exact' ideal that I strive for isn't readily available in a lot of gender related instances (the areas of the spectrum we don't have terms for). But I don't think that means people should appropriate other terms and pretend that the mean something that they don't rather than helping our language to evolve and creating accurate terminology instead.

I have read 1984. It's on my all-time favorite books list. But I disagree with the notion that people are incapable of thinking thoughts that words don't exist for, especially given that rebellion was one of the central themes of the book. In fact, your explanation of areas of a spectrum that there are not terms for kind of rejects that concept as well.

I absolutely agree that more clearly defined terminology for sex and gender would be helpful moving forward, but I still maintain that people improperly using sex terms as gender terms presently does not just make them so.

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Offline Powerless

Re: Gender X
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2019, 11:25:42 »
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@Nimbus - thanks for your post.

I disagree with your statement about "improperly using a word, however  confidently, does not change its meaning." Word definitions are modified and change with time constantly. There are multiple words whose meanings have changed, or additional meanings have been added, based on their societal use. While yes, based on the previous definitions of these words, their uses may have been deemed "wrong" initially, that doesn't mean that once a definition of the word has been modified that those newer definitions can continuously be called wrong. Terms like "gay" and "cool" are more recent terms with changes/additions that most people would cite but a simple Google search will show multiple examples of word definitions changing DRASTICALLY over time (I did so myself... was actually quite interesting). I would still highly suggest you rethink the position that saying "he" and "she" is solely related to sex and not gender. When these terms became commonplace, the difference between sex and gender was also not commonplace, so because those two terms were used synonymously, so were the pronouns used to describe the people. As times have changed, I think it's quite probable that words have changed meaning as well. If the background of a word has been modified over time, then it's clear that the words from that background may have to be modified as well. The questions regarding gender on this complicated of a scale is definitely a new concept so simply stating that terms used during this new age of conversation are simply "misused" I think is a stretch.

I apologize if I misrepresented your statements. I must have read them incorrectly. Based on this post though, I agree with your reasoning for why you do it but disagree based on what I said above in that I don't think it's correct to say that "he" and "she" are exclusively sex-related pronouns. I also don't believe that it is any type of verbal abuse or anything to not use a person's preferred pronoun, although it may be rude. Freedom of speech is essential and no one should be forcing anyone to say anything.

When it comes to the spectrum I understand what you're saying, but because it seems that gender does land more on a spectrum, we have to deal with what we can regarding pronouns. Language can only go so far in such a certain amount of time.


"But I disagree with the notion that people are incapable of thinking thoughts that words don't exist for, especially given that rebellion was one of the central themes of the book. In fact, your explanation of areas of a spectrum that there are not terms for kind of rejects that concept as well."


I think you took my statement about this as way too face value. The book doesn't simply mean specific words removed from the dictionary, but phrases and terms being used together as well. Removing words like "rebellion" obviously isn't enough to stop someone from thinking about rising up against their government because they can do just that - think with the words "rise up against my government." The point I was making was that if our words are structured to form sentences in certain ways and that the only words we're able to add to those sentences are ones we've created to describe things then anything outside of what we dictate is a proper sentence structure with the proper words we've created is unthinkable. Because there are no words for you to think in your thoughts, you're unable to form thoughts about anything other than what the language you speak allows. This goes for both words and sentence structure, like I said. If the word "oppresion" was removed from language as well as any variation of the word or any combination of words that could express what oppresion is, they couldn't think of it. And even if ther are technically words that could express it, if they're taught to mean certain things and be structured in certain ways that woudn't allow that thought, it would be impossible. For example - the question "What does the color green smell like?" is grammatically correct, but because of the way our language is formed, the sentence is meaningless. If a language were to format words where the statement "My government is oppressing me" just simply doesn't make sense, although grammatically it does, the thought that that statement represents in our current language wouldn't be possible (the same would have to be true for any variation or word replacements that could mean the same). If you're into extremely in depth scientific discussions as well, specifically on things like the beginning of the universe and the physics around it, you see instances of what I'm talking about as well. Asking something like "What created the universe?" while seemingly a legitimate quesiton just simply isn't in terms of some scientific theories. The same is true for physics when it comes extremely complex calculations (way above my level of understanding). You'll hear those who study physics talk about calculations that can prove of something that exists but never be able to see or describe it in any way, possibly because we don't have the words to comprehend what it is that we're trying to describe.

To me, this was the point that Orwell was trying to make.

Again, I may have done a horrible job elaborating on my point. It's an EXTREMELY difficult subject to grasp and I even find myself lost in it at times. Hopefully I was coherent enough.

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Offline Nimbus

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Re: Gender X
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2019, 13:59:28 »
@Powerless - Again, I really think you underestimate your ability to explain what you're thinking.

I think I'm having some difficulty with reconciling some of the, at least seemingly, contradictory ideas that you've presented in the first block of your response. Namely, I am not altogether sure of whether you think the definitions of words actually matter. And while, at first glance, I could imagine my saying that coming across as an attempt at being difficult, I can assure you I'm being sincere. On the one hand, you posit that "... that doesn't mean that once a definition of the word has been modified that those newer definitions can continuously be called wrong.", and I would agree with that to an extent; that's why I conceded that use of the modified definition of 'literally' is accurate, despite the fact that I take issue with the way that people use that word. However, in your saying so and my agreeing with it, we have an implicit agreement between the two of us that definitions matter. To that end, deferring to the Oxford English Dictionary definitions of 'he' and 'she' (denoted as deference given that it's the dictionary source that you opted to use, and I'd likely have gone with a different one) include the terms boy, man, male, girl, woman, and female, none of which denote gender in their definitions (at least as they appear in the online version of the dictionary). This brings me to the 'other hand', as it were. You have effectively said that a person's use of a word cannot be deemed as 'wrong' if it's in line with the definition. You have also effectively said that a word is not being misused if it is not in line with the definition. I suppose I'm just curious when it is acceptable, in your opinion, to say that a person is, in fact, misusing a word. Because, as it stands, you've said that it's not misuse if the definition of the word has been modified, but that it's also not misuse if the definition of the word hasn't been modified.

A couple of minor points that I wanted to address from this section as well include that, 1) I do not hold the position that saying 'she' and 'he' are solely related to sex and not gender. Socio-linguistics make it obvious that this isn't the case. I have said, repeatedly, that the definitions of 'he' and 'she' are solely related to sex, and 2) I do not feel like it is accurate to say that I have 'simply stated that the terms used during this new age of conversation are misused'. The functional purpose of the word 'simply' in that sentence would suggest that I've done little more than just say it, and given that I have offered definitions, advocated for the evolution of language to be more inclusive/accurate, and we seem to be in agreement that sex and gender are in fact different, I do not feel that I've 'simply stated' anything of the sort.

Moving on, I can appreciate where you're coming from regarding the use of pronouns in relation to a gender spectrum, but again, I feel like this is a point of contention on which we're going to have to agree to disagree. You view 'he' and 'she' pronouns as being gendered; I do not. But if I was in agreement with you, I would argue that as of this moment, we have done nothing to advance our language in this regard. You and I have agreed about expanding terms used to differentiate between sex and gender and I don't feel like that is happening, least of all when we settle for attaching meaning to previously existing terms.

I do not feel like I took your statements related to 1984 at face value. I feel like I considered what you had to say about the subject and decided that I disagree. That sentiment, if anything, has been strengthened after you further elaborated on what you meant. The book itself, and indeed our language, illustrate the fact that we are able to conceptualize things that there are not words for. In fact, every word that we use originated from a concept that we did not previously have a word for.

I will say that I feel like the question "What does the color green smell like?" is a poor example of something that our language does not allow us to conceptualize. Reason being, our language does allow us to conceptualize it. Roughly 1 out of every 2000 people are born with synesthesia (for comparison, the rate for intersex people that are born is believed to be between 1 in 1500 and 1 in 2000) , allowing (at least some of) them to hear, smell, taste, and even feel (emotionally as well as physically) colors, along with a number of other ways in which there is intersectionality between senses. We did not previously have a term for people that could smell colors. Now we have 'synesthetes'.

I can't stress enough how much I have enjoyed this conversation. I honestly would not have expected for something this intellectually stimulating to come from an offsite Runescape clan forum =P That's not to say that I don't think people in the clan are smart. It just strikes me as a bit of an odd platform for such a discussion, lol.

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Offline BuyMoreKeys

Re: Gender X
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2019, 12:31:37 »
Petition for @Redtunnel to add Gender X to consentus profiles  XD

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Offline Nikkie

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Re: Gender X
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2019, 13:40:59 »
Petition for @Redtunnel to add Gender X to consentus profiles  XD
+1

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Offline btraill

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Re: Gender X
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2019, 00:46:20 »
Someone who portrays my opinion/viewpoint well on this gender pronoun stuff. (Jordan Peterson):



 

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