Lets see the new way to kill a lot of people with an every item, cars or van or even a lorry, are we going to ban those?

"Gun control isnt the answer"
are u sure.. are you really sure about that

I said specifically that gun control has clearly not worked because in the case of the recent school shooting, the person still obtained the gun unlawfully in the black market.  I am fully aware my opinion will be unpopular but that's because I don't view the subject in a partisian point of view. I don't agree with the left on banning guns nor do I even agree with the NRA who don't want to talk about improving the mental health system and education system to reduce the likely impact of gun crime. Trump and the republicans prefer to ignore the actual issue because they take lobby money from the NRA who are also indirectly responsible for the issue of gun crime in itself. There are plenty of outside factors which influence the spike in gun crime which could be addressed if we tackled domestic issues such as poverty and improving the mental health system so that people can be better supported and prevent the chances of them going on a maniac killing spree. Chicago is a good example of how gun control hasn't improve the situation there because the reality is people will still get a gun illegally and the murder rates have been some of the highest in the country if i remember correctly.

The ONLY form of control i think and i said above which could work is if the mental health services worked the NRA and enforced a yearly mental test to ensure the  citizens following the law  who own the guns legally are checked for their mental state and whether they are mentally sane enough to own a gun based on their criteria, mostly because this actually makes sense. Banning guns on the other hand is unfortunately unrealistic because as i said people will still obtain the guns illegally through the black market. Perhaps I am biased because I consider myself libertarian and so I view issues like this and regulation different to most people but I think addressing domestic issues and improving the support networks for people will be a much more effective way of reducing gun crime. I would rather address the issues practically and address the domestic issues which have correlated with gun crime. I simply think there more that people can do to stop the issue of gun crime than simply throw sanctions and regulations whilst ignoring the complexity of the issue at hand and how numerous factors correlate with the increase of crime.

But the reason he was able to obtain a gun on the black market so readily is because of the amount of guns in the country that can easily be transported to states with stricter gun control than others. Until there is nationwide gun control and a massive gun amnesty, nothing will change. Kids and civilians will continue to be murdered in these atrocious attacks. No child should go to school fearing for their life, especially not in a country as advanced as America.

The constitutional right to bare arms, was written at a time when the guns available were like these



They fired 2-3 rounds a minute. Quite hard to commit an atrocity on the scale of the most recent school shooting, or the las vegas shootings with a weapon like this, without being taken down after your first shot.

Guns of today look more like this



Sure it's semi auto, but it can still fire over 50 rounds a minute, and can be modified to fire full auto. These guns are pretty much available at any shooting club/event in states that allow their sale. They can then be sold on the black market for a marked up price in states that have strict gun control.

18 incidents of firearms being discharged in/around schools since the dawn of the year is a disgusting and shameful statistic, and should really make the American people think.

But the reason he was able to obtain a gun on the black market so readily is because of the amount of guns in the country that can easily be transported to states with stricter gun control than others. Until there is nationwide gun control and a massive gun amnesty, nothing will change. Kids and civilians will continue to be murdered in these atrocious attacks. No child should go to school fearing for their life, especially not in a country as advanced as America.

Maybe stopping the trading of guns illegally through the border could make a difference but I think its ignoring the bigger problem at large in the sense that we ignoring what motivates people to commit such crimes. Limited gun control could make a difference (i even said myself it could work if done effectively without infringing on the rights of citizens who own a gun legally and follow the law). I would have no problem if the borders did a better job at stopping illegal trafficking of goods and if every state did mental checks for every person who owns a gun legally but its not going to make that much of a severe difference.   I would still insist that America and the governments should  stop the incentive behind gun crime by trying to improve neighbourhoods who are suffering from gang on gang conflict by providing a better education system and allowing people to improve their lives and provide incentive to step away from crime since gang crime make up most of the  gun homicides due to the drug war (which is a separate issue in itself i guess)  as well as the mental health system actually listening to people pleas for help and providing the appropriate help needed which unfortunately did not happen to the man who committed the horrendous crime in Florida. A part of me also thinks that even if you did make it tougher to trade guns illegally, I don't think it will make too much of a difference at this point because I think its too late.

I simply think there better and more hands on practical solutions than simply saying we need stricter regulations and the government and both sides of the mainstream political spectrum need to do more on addressing the domestic issues which correlate to increase in gun crime. The idea of owning guns is silly to me anyways; I never understood the gun culture of America but I can understand why people would own a gun if its to defend themselves so I cannot demonise every gun owner. I simply think the governments and the NRA have let the issue go on too long to the point its too late for gun control to meaningfully, especially when the right wing people say we need to "just accept it as way of life" which is a bullshit argument of saying "we don't want to stop incentive behind gun crime". At this point I think a better approach to prevent the impact of gun violence in any way possible and have a hands on approach or maybe have tougher punishments on people who have dangerously illegal weapons (although I don't see how this could work either unfortunately due to the issue of the black market).

Personally, I don't think the issue of guns should come down to a state by state basis. I think there should be a national consensus on both sides of the political spectrum to deal with the issue  and address the domestic issues which correlate to gun crime whilst respecting the rights of those who own guns and do not commit and break the law of the lands since I don't think the government should infringe on their rights also. They need to have the right balance and have a practical approach. Unfortunately I don't think this will ever happen because of the NRA and the fact that the issue is political football which is why I generally disagree with both sides of the debate because i think both political parties and the NRA are indirectly responsible for the problem with guns. They seem to be ignoring the issues behind such atrocious crimes and learning nothing  about why it happened. I don't think we will ever find a middle ground because the issue is too complex and that gun control is only addressing half of the problems with gun crime. So far I would say the gun control in America has failed the people and has not worked as intended to in my opinion.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/03/sniper-chris-kyle-shot-dead

Having a gun to 'defend yourself' won't always work. There can always be someone who is quicker to the trigger than you.

That recent one where some guy sprayed bullets into a crowd from a window? What difference would people having a gun on them make?

I understand your point on getting to the root cause of what makes a person want to do something like that. America definitely needs to improve on it's mental health awareness, and try and remove the stigma somewhat that comes with having a mental health problem. But you can't just pin all the blame on mental health. There's shops that sell guns to people with mental health issues. Donald trump actually repealed the act that made people that claim mental health benefits appear on the gun check register, WTF. http://fortune.com/2018/02/15/trump-shooting-mental-illness/

It is a case of mental health and gun control. each are as implicit in this as the other.

Saw this on facebook


almost shot my classmates when I was fourteen years old.

I was not mentally ill. I had no juvenile criminal record. I'd never been suspended from school. I was a straight-A student.

I almost shot my classmates, because I experienced a moment of powerlessness and rage—like many teenagers do—and I had access to firearms.

The problem started when I was in ninth-grade. I took advanced foreign language classes, which meant I attended high school for first period and then took a separate bus from high school to my junior high. I was the youngest kid on the high school bus, and I had no friends in high school. That made me an easy target for a bully named Kyle.

Ninth grade was already a bad year for me, because my parents were getting divorced. Kyle turned it into a living fucking Hell. He incessantly teased me, slapped the back of my head, shoved me out of my seat, and made me into a spectacle for everyone's amusement and derision.

One day, I'd finally had enough. I can't remember what Kyle did or said, but I couldn't take it any more. I grabbed him by his throat and lifted him out of his seat and shook him like a rag doll while seething through clenched teeth: "STOP. FUCKING. WITH. ME." Then I tossed him back into his seat.

I thought that had ended it. I thought he'd stop bullying me after that.

I was wrong.

After school, a bunch of older kids who I didn't recognize started boarding my bus. Just before the bus pulled away from my junior high, Kyle waltzed up the steps, grinning. He pointed directly at me and said, "That's him."

It turns out Kyle and his friends had driven from the high school to the junior high, so they could ride my bus home with me and beat my ass. The entire trip, they laughed and bragged about how they were going to kick the shit out of me when we got to my bus-stop.

I had a long time to think about what I was going to do, and I decided that even though I was going to get a beatdown, I wasn't going to run, and I wasn't going to cry. I was just going to calmly get off the bus and start walking home. I figured they'd jump me as soon as the bus had pulled around the corner and was out of sight.

My hands are shaking as I write this. It's been over twenty years, and I still feel a sense of helplessness and rage when I think about that day.

The bus pulled up to my stop, and I got off. The swarm of high school kids piled off the bus behind me. As the bus pulled away, one of them shoved me from behind. I kept walking. They circled me, yelling and making threats.

But something strange happened. None of them took a swing at me.

I got to my house, put my key in the door as they stood behind me laughing, and I walked right in. When they realized there were no adults in the house, they started circling the building, banging on the doors and walls, and yelling at me to come out and fight them.

So I went upstairs, and I got a shotgun. I checked to make sure it was loaded. Then I released the safety and chambered a shell.

I walked back downstairs and held the barrel against the front door as some of these kids stood on the porch, pounding and yelling at me to let them in. I began to squeeze the trigger, anticipating the blast would penetrate the door and knock these kids to the ground. Then I'd fling the door open and start shooting everyone as they ran away in terror.

I wanted them to feel the same fear they'd inflicted on me. I wanted to hurt them like they'd hurt me. But most of all, I wanted them to feel powerless like I’d felt. I wanted to feel control over just one thing in my life.

As I started to squeeze the trigger, someone yelled that a car was coming, and the kids bolted from the porch and scattered. I was one second away—maybe even less than a second—from shooting my classmates.

Meanwhile, they've gone about their lives. They're in their late 30s and early 40s now. They probably have kids of their own, and they have no idea they almost died that day. They have no idea that behind that door, a scared and angry fourteen-year-old pointed a gun at them and was only a moment away from pulling the trigger.

I'm not proud of any of this. I am not typing any of this to glorify my behavior. I'm explaining what I did, so you will understand that the gun problem in America is not a mental health problem. I was not mentally ill. The problem is access to firearms.

If I'd had access to an AR-15 instead of a shotgun, I would have been quicker to pull the trigger. To my teenage mind, an AR-15 would have felt like the pinnacle of power. I would have felt like a bad-ass; like the characters I envied on TV and in video games. I would have felt like an Old Testament deity.

And I would have used that power to kill my classmates.

I have absolutely no doubt about this.

Great discussion, unfortunately I don't have anything to add to the topic other than something I think is probably true...Which is, I don't see gun control changing anytime soon unless it directly effects the NRA/Senators, as in a mass-shooting in congress. I bet you they'd enforce stricter gun controls and regulations within no time.

Also, nothing will change as the senators are receiving bribes donations to keep things the way they are and to make guns easier to purchase.

An interesting read:
https://qz.com/1207851/parkland-shooting-the-nra-and-gun-lobby-invested-millions-in-trump-and-other-republicans-in-2016/

I hate the whole, "guns don't kill people, people do" debate personally. Fighting the whole semantics of it is ignorant, in my honest opinion.

Other than for hunting, you should not need a personal fire arm. The 'world' was founded upon documents that used the context of musket style rifles. No one's committing a mass murder with a firearm that requires an abundance of patience to reload (between firing, might I add).

It's time certain areas of the world crack down on this.