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Clan Forum => Debates => Debates archive => Topic started by: Noxarion on May 20, 2015, 14:49:59

Title: Noxarion's weekly debate #1: 'Death, the end or the beginning ?'
Post by: Noxarion on May 20, 2015, 14:49:59: Everyone will die sooner or later that's a fact, but we still don't know what really happens when you die. We know what happens to your physical body when it's either rotting in the ground or being burned to ash, but what happens to our 'spirit' that thing that makes every human different.

There are a few theories about what happens when we die and I will discuss the most popular ones in this topic, (These will not include the hollywood or fantasy theories about zombies and/or vampires) The theories we'll be discussing are: 'heaven and hell, ghosts and reincarnation'.

Keep in mind that everyone has his/her own theory and that we should respect them for it !

[slay] Heaven and Hell [slay]
The theory that if we die we go to either heaven (when you have been a good person) or hell (when you have been a bad person) is a theory that is currently the most popular on the world because of it's religious nature. This theory says that the moment you die your spirit leaves your body and will go to the gates of heaven where you will be judged by 'god' and if you have been a good enough person you are allowed to enter heaven but if you haven't been a good enough person you will be send to hell were you will suffer for the rest of eternity by the hands of satan. This theory is supported by the Christan Religion. This is the most 'modern' theory since the Christian religion is the youngest of the big religions.

[slay] Ghosts [slay]
The theory that life is just a big test and if you die you can either go to the 'light' and live 'true life' or if you haven't learned anything or if you are put as a guard to safekeep certain places or people than you will remain in this world as a ghost. This theory got people debating for decades if ghosts exist or not, where some people can see what they call 'ghosts' and some people can't.
According to this theory there are also poltergeists or evil spirits that still haunt the world because they can't find peace. These poltergeists are the type of ghosts mostly used in hollywood movies, games and novels (the movie paranormal activity is build around poltergeists but don't watch it apart from part 1 the movies are really bad). Ghosts are currently extremely popular in mostly europe, asia and south america. The United Kingdom currently has one of the biggest amount of reports from people who saw ghosts or are being haunted by one. With tv-shows and hollywood movies this theory is getting populair with non religious people and even some religious people who claim that ghosts are just spirits who don't want to go to the gates of heaven or have escaped from hell. While this isn't the most popular theory it's certainly the most complex one, where everyone has a different view of ghosts and what they do.

[slay]Reincarnation [slay]
The finaly theory of this topic is the theory of reincarnation, this theory says that if you a living being dies it will reincarnate (brought back to life in another form) into either an animal or another human being. So for example if you die you might reincarnate into a cow, or a chicken or a 6ft tall black guy with pink hair and blue eyes. So according to this theory that cat you own might be a dead relative of you (that would explain alot).

The truth is us humans don't know what death will be like untill we die ourselves. This makes dead a mystery to us and frighten some of us while it brings peace to others. The only thing that we do know about death is that when it's your time to die there is no escape so you might aswell enjoy life because it will be over before you know it.

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Title: Re: Noxarion's weekly debate #1: 'Death, the end or the beginning ?'
Post by: Redtunnel on May 20, 2015, 16:03:28: Imagination is key and thoughts become reality.

Consider a magical afterlife - an eternal paradise where everyone can do anything, together and united. What does God do with this eternal platform? Is there another choice than to explore the power of the mind and enjoy onself to the fullest? Whether the lives here are temporary or a part of the eternal scenario, the same reasoning can be applied. Pleasure in the context should naturally be viewed as a very broad term, as everyone experiences pleasure in different ways.

Why, then, are we living these harsh earthly lives with so much pain and suffering when we have the power to be in a "paradise"? Two reasons. These lives are an opportunity to expand the understanding of pleasure. For example, even in these comparably harsh conditions, we can learn how to love and enjoy ourselves. The harsher the life, the greater is the reward and understanding. Appreciation is best understood with perspective. Secondly, being a human is hilarious from a meta perspective. Consider it like roleplaying what it's like to be a human, with a specific personality, in a specific body, with certain talents in a certain society, at a specific era etc. It can be compared to why we play virtual games, read books or watch movies.

"I wanna be a dissatisfied character!" \:D/
Title: Re: Noxarion's weekly debate #1: 'Death, the end or the beginning ?'
Post by: Only Lilly on May 20, 2015, 22:18:38: I believe in reincarnation, you learn through this life and the next time you visit the earth, you used your prior knowledge, Far too many people have proof they have been here before.

I went to a regression group for a weekend, and watched people being regressed and listening to their stories fascinate me. I find it hard to mediate and be hypnotised so have never been lucky enough to have this experience.

As for heaven and hell, you make your own on earth, there is no such thing in my opinion,
Title: Re: Noxarion's weekly debate #1: 'Death, the end or the beginning ?'
Post by: Thunderite on May 20, 2015, 23:37:18: If God forgives all, what would happen if Hitler repented at the gates of heaven? I can't imagine him in some silk gown playing a harp.

I don't know what to think and I don't really give it much thought either. The one think that would suck was if when you die you're just looking through your eyes from where ever you was buried/cremated and nothing happens. Like you're stuck there forever, unmoving.

If I could, I would live forever without a doubt.
Title: Re: Noxarion's weekly debate #1: 'Death, the end or the beginning ?'
Post by: Redtunnel on May 21, 2015, 17:12:45: Quote from: Pluto on May 20, 2015, 23:37:18
If God forgives all, what would happen if Hitler repented at the gates of heaven? I can't imagine him in some silk gown playing a harp.
I don't think "God" even forgives, for there has been no transgression in the first place. Everything goes. At that level of understanding, petty Earthly drama is seen for the role-playing game it is, rather than the serious business we need to view it as in order to be immersed in it. So yeah, Hitler is partying just as much as Ghandi right now. Moral values is simply a concept created by humans. There is no eternal suffering for "crimes" committed, there is only understanding to be gained. From this meta perspective, every emotion inflicted, you will also experience and review. There will undoubtedly be some level of shame and regret to that, but there is no condemnation other than what you make of it.
Title: Re: Noxarion's weekly debate #1: 'Death, the end or the beginning ?'
Post by: Only Lilly on May 21, 2015, 19:26:06: I think being dead is like sleeping
Title: Re: Noxarion's weekly debate #1: 'Death, the end or the beginning ?'
Post by: Happi on May 21, 2015, 22:34:27: I believe we just vanish, no conscience, no memories just nothing but pure emptiness like when we are deep asleep (without dreaming).
We're just matter that will transform in something else.
Title: Re: Noxarion's weekly debate #1: 'Death, the end or the beginning ?'
Post by: Powell on May 21, 2015, 23:49:34: My mind has never been made up on this matter.

For a while I believed in ghosts. Not in a bad light, but in a good way. My step dad passed away a few years ago, and so many events followed that had to deal with him. For instance, one night I was home alone when I still lived with my dad and mom, and I heard this huge crash in their bathroom. Sounded like someone broke in. Instantly grabbed my gun, and went to inspect it, and in the shower was his Shampoo, body wash, and razer on the bathtub floor. Nothing else. And surely not enough to make a huge noise like there was. Things like that happened to me for years until eventually my step sister went to live a few states away. When she left, all the random events stopped. So I think my dad is watching over my sister. (Thats her REAL dad. He just raised me since I was young, being my step dad and all)
Title: Re: Noxarion's weekly debate #1: 'Death, the end or the beginning ?'
Post by: Only Lilly on May 22, 2015, 19:58:50: Quote from: Powell on May 21, 2015, 23:49:34
My mind has never been made up on this matter.

For a while I believed in ghosts. Not in a bad light, but in a good way. My step dad passed away a few years ago, and so many events followed that had to deal with him. For instance, one night I was home alone when I still lived with my dad and mom, and I heard this huge crash in their bathroom. Sounded like someone broke in. Instantly grabbed my gun, and went to inspect it, and in the shower was his Shampoo, body wash, and razer on the bathtub floor. Nothing else. And surely not enough to make a huge noise like there was. Things like that happened to me for years until eventually my step sister went to live a few states away. When she left, all the random events stopped. So I think my dad is watching over my sister. (Thats her REAL dad. He just raised me since I was young, being my step dad and all)

I totally believe the dead watch over us
Title: Re: Noxarion's weekly debate #1: 'Death, the end or the beginning ?'
Post by: Noxarion on May 24, 2015, 22:58:35: I think that the 'heaven and hell' theory is simply focused on ourselves. Us humans have the power to create both heaven and hell depending on our emotions. If we look at the beautifull untouched nature that's on our land or under the sea where animals can live free we can say that those places are 'heaven on earth', but if we look at the other side where there is war or conflict because of religion, power strugglers or human greed we can say those places are 'hell on earth'. So I think that we can create both heaven and hell depending on the situation.

The ghost theory is the one that interests me the most. I think that life is just a big test and that if we die we will start to live, and that people that haven't learned everything they should yet or if they have task that they need to complete than they will roam the world as ghosts. Personaly I'm very interested in ghosts and hauntings and why they happen and if certain places like schools, hospitals and prisons can effect the amount of ghosts and hauntings.

As far as the reincarnation theory goes I simply don't believe it.
Title: Re: Noxarion's weekly debate #1: 'Death, the end or the beginning ?'
Post by: Only Lilly on May 25, 2015, 11:30:42: If you do not believe in reincarnation then how do you explain people that can describe incidents and places they have never visited down to the small detail.
Title: Re: Noxarion's weekly debate #1: 'Death, the end or the beginning ?'
Post by: Joel on May 25, 2015, 11:32:01: I'm not quite sure what I believe tbh. I've always been interested in the ghost theory but I've had no proof put infront of me to persuade me they actually exist (yet).

I'm fairly sure that once I'm gone I'll just sit there in my box and waste away, I don't think I'll see any after life or be judged by a higher power.

Quote from: Only Lilly on May 25, 2015, 11:30:42
If you do not believe in reincarnation then how do you explain people that can describe incidents and places they have never visited down to the small detail.

I don't believe this theory, it's like Déjà vu, you're convinced you've been here or seen that before when infact you haven't. I don't understand it much but I'm sure it's something like you're memories are sorted into the wrong compartment lol. Maybe it's something like that?

It's like me visiting Florida last year and for some reason forgetting it. I'd still have those memories of the parks somewhere but I just don't know why, I'm convinced I haven't been before.

Could it be things like that? I've never read stories and such on it so I wouldn't like to say. I usually don't believe until I have something prove it to me or a first hand experience.
Title: Re: Noxarion's weekly debate #1: 'Death, the end or the beginning ?'
Post by: Only Lilly on May 25, 2015, 11:33:05: So why do we even exist?
Title: Re: Noxarion's weekly debate #1: 'Death, the end or the beginning ?'
Post by: Noxarion on May 25, 2015, 12:50:59: Quote from: Only Lilly on May 25, 2015, 11:30:42
If you do not believe in reincarnation then how do you explain people that can describe incidents and places they have never visited down to the small detail.

It's proven that the human brain can make fake memories why some are so detailed is still unknown but by reading newspapers or watching the news we can actualy make a memory of that place and time even if we haven't been there.
Title: Re: Noxarion's weekly debate #1: 'Death, the end or the beginning ?'
Post by: Joel on May 26, 2015, 10:16:11: Quote from: Only Lilly on May 25, 2015, 11:33:05
So why do we even exist?

Thats the age old question, personally, I don't even ponder things like that. We're here somehow and I don't suppose I'll really find the answer so I'm quite content in just finding out at the end ha! It would be cool if this life was just a test and once we died we moved onto 'proper' life :D
Title: Re: Noxarion's weekly debate #1: 'Death, the end or the beginning ?'
Post by: Cam on May 26, 2015, 11:40:25: I think I watched something like this on a program called Mystery Hunters like 10 years ago

I'm not really sure what would happen when we die tbh, I've never really given it a thought. I'm not sure if heaven and hell are really a thing, since there are so many religions, surely according to one you'd be sent to hell for supporting another religion and vice versa.

I've always liked the idea of reincarnation, slightly mixed in with Karma, so if you were a crappy person you'd end up being a fly or something in your next life.

I've always been interested in ghosts but unless I witness one with my own eyes I'd probably be forever sceptical. I'd say if ghosts were real, then they were people who had unfinished business on earth.

Some people also go on about guardian angels. My sister went to a tarot card reading the other day and the clairvoyant told her that her guardian angel was a red Indian or something. Idk why or how because as far as I'm aware, none of my family origins are from there.
Title: Re: Noxarion's weekly debate #1: 'Death, the end or the beginning ?'
Post by: Josh on May 26, 2015, 11:52:36: All I hope is that death isn't the end, but as a non religious person all I see is that death is just the end to our being.

I really hope that isn't true but I guess one day I'll find out.
Title: Re: Noxarion's weekly debate #1: 'Death, the end or the beginning ?'
Post by: Only Lilly on May 26, 2015, 12:40:19: I think angels are a totally different subject :)

I saw something on facebook about a baby in the womb thinking when it leaves the body it dies, who are we to say this world isnt another womb and when we die we move onto the next chapter
Title: Re: Noxarion's weekly debate #1: 'Death, the end or the beginning ?'
Post by: Boxout on May 26, 2015, 15:52:42: I really like this subject, it's very hard for me to explain my beliefs, I'm an atheist through and through, I don't believe in heaven and hell or god, it's a wonderful story we use to make death easier to cope with and a way of bringing our children to be good people by scaring them, in my opinion that is anyway.

On the other side of this I very strongly believe in ghosts, my great nan was a medium and it has been passed down in the family, I can pick up on when there is a spirit near and multiple times have been able to make contact with them, sometimes it's fascinating- other times it's incredibly dangerous (me and a few friends went on a walk through a graveyard to see if I could pick anything up, we all ended up running out after me and a few friends felt like we had been stabbed in the side, just to find we all had scratches down our sides and were all bleeding quite badly) I've managed to capture a few pretty good pictures in the past and got some incredible videos that could change any non-believer.

Tiff was never too sure until I told her about the spirit I have in my house, I have been woken up multiple times by "something" just to see a figure standing over me, I was putting it down to imagination until tiff woke me up panicking telling me there was someone at the end of the bed, there it was stood over us, it has never harmed- it just shows up, makes some noise then walks out, sometimes knocking stuff over on its journey.

Like I said, it's a very hard subject for me to explain my beliefs in, not believing in afterlife in one way but believing it in another is so hard to explain to people.
Title: Re: Noxarion's weekly debate #1: 'Death, the end or the beginning ?'
Post by: Only Lilly on May 26, 2015, 16:38:42: i didnt realise you had such a gift Martin, cant wait for camping
Title: Re: Noxarion's weekly debate #1: 'Death, the end or the beginning ?'
Post by: Alex on May 27, 2015, 11:35:52: Being a strong disbeliever of any form of religion, i find it hard to agree with anything said about death. I don't want to believe that it's the end, but for me it's the only logical answer to it. I did study a level research and beyond into life and death in Buddhism and Hinduism, and have got to say that it is so fascinating what they both believe, a form of reincarnation but both totally different. If I wanted to believe in life after death it would have to be from them.

I'll also remember the fact that my old re teacher being a complete theist, could not understand life after death because there are so many versions of it, so many different complexes in each one. She once said to me 'The only thing about death I take spirit from, is the fact that at the end of it, my body will be used as nutrients, for soil, plants etc..' And although it may not be so true, it is a nice gestured thought.

EDIT:

However, I have told this story before last itme I was in consentus, when I was a kid, I had an imaginary friend called Charlotte, she used to go everywhere with me. My mum and dad keep telling me that some of the things I used to say to them, and then say Charlotte told me, was scary. My mum has always had a theory for this, before I was born my mum gave birth to a girl named Sian, she passed away at 8 months old, and my mum will always tell me that she thinks Charlotte was Sian, finishing off on earth by making sure that we are safe, and are happy.

I don't know what to make of this, but it does make me think that ghosts exist, maybe for some other reason that we don't know, or haven't even thought of yet, but this is one thing that I will always think back to about death