Around 9 months ago I was a devout Roman Catholic, going to Church every Sunday, praying nightly. I then looked at religion from an Atheists point of view, one of what religion looks like from the outside and if it has benefited my life in any way. I had previously been in many heated debates as to whether God did in fact exist and what I was following was true, instead of a sham. Over the period of 2 months I was converted to agnosticism, an then to the firm belief that there was no God, atheism.

My family doesn't know, when I tried to tell my mother she freaked out to the point I had to say I was joking just to shut her up. The rest of my family, beig Italian, have stuck to the "roots" and still follow roman catholicism. I had to go to a communion today, of my little cousin and I was absolutely disgusted. I was used to the normal "put 5$ in the basket to help the church out weekly" which even then was a bit excessive, but what I had never seen before, and what many churches are beginning to do is offer PAP's. Pre-authorized payments; where every month money comes out of your bank account and goes towards the church. The stereotype that religion is only about money has never rung more true.

What are your thoughts? I've put this in debates so maybe we can get a healthy discussion going on

I guess that sucks for you, but it's up to you what you want to believe in at the end of the day. Don't even know the last time I went to church. Years and years ago though.

You should tell your mum though, I'm sure she'd get over it eventually. Shouldn't be forced to go to a church if it's not what you believe in anymore.

Religion to me is utter bullshit. I don't mind people believing in certain religions not one bit - as long as they don't bother me. When Jehovah's Witnesses knock on my door me and my Mum pretend nobody is in and don't bother answering the door because if we do we'll end up telling them to fuck off.

My Dad is an atheist whilst my Mum is a Catholic but she disagrees with a lot of the things Catholic people do and is closer to being a Christian than a Catholic. She also doesn't go to church and is fine with homosexuals. She's also fine with having sex before marriage (she isn't even married to my Dad, they're both still together and I'm here). My Mum was also raised by a Mother who was very religious.

I myself, am agnostic. I don't believe in God but I also don't believe we can just go ahead and say he doesn't exist. Those are my opinions and mine alone, though. I don't mind whether you're agnostic, atheist, theist or strongly religious as long as your beliefs don't bother me and you especially don't try and force your beliefs down my throat. I can't stand it when brainwashed people who believe they are working for God do that kind of thing and I also think Jehovah's Witnesses need to leave people alone instead of banging on peoples doors all day and attempt to brainwash others.

Reading this it makes me wonder where i stand on religion, i am a roman catholic like you rob but im not sure what i believe. i want to believe theres a god, ive been raised to believe theres a god, but it is a struggle when there is no evidence or proof, but then again thats what faith is, believing without seeing.  its a decision you have made and as long as youre happy with it then it is a fine decision, i know if i were to tell my family i was atheist the shots id get would be unbelievable being italian like you too.

Everyone has different beliefs.

Reading the thread I wondered myself what I believe in. I don't believe in god, however I would like to think that some stories are true. My cousin, who was brought up as a christian tries to convince me that all stories are true, but can understand from my point of view why I don't believe the stories entirely and as to why I don't believe that god is real.

I think in your case it is hard for the family to accept that suddenly you don't believe in what they all believe in. Try to explain to them why you have a different perspective. Everyone has different believes and the right to believe in different things.

Regarding the PAP, just seems like they are trying to make good use of modern day technology of getting donations, which for me, is a good idea. On your part you should just object to it if you feel strongly against it.

Like others, I also debated my beliefs while reading this thread.  Based off my beliefs, I would classify myself as a deist.  My father is a pastor, so I can't really tell him.  My mother I told about deism, and might tell her my belief, but it is hard as she is religious too.

Religion aside, what do you find more plausible, an infinity of creation coming out of nothingness or an infinity created by something eternal? I personally find the latter concept simpler to grasp and argue for.

I like these responses, keep them up!

@ Red, well we have theory's and somewhat of a minuscule proof as to the previous argument, according to the ones you put forth. With the latter, sure, it's simpler to grasp, some guy was here and he was all powerful and so he made the world and all that's in it, yet what brought him forth? An infinity of creation coming out of nothingness is less plausible than an all-powerful being who was here before us put it all together?

one comment in religion class will always stick with me
"religion is just another useless thing to help us cope", so to speak - in the chaos and destruction of life, to help us find cause, meaning and so we dont go insane without a security blanket of omg what happens when we die.
this is kinda the only constraint on persons i can see other than trying, in psychological terms, to be normal and fit in with society. (to be good in real life so you go to heaven, i kinda see contrasted with be good in real life, if ur not u go to jail... so to speak)

personally, i do not mind what others believe. as long as they do not force it upon me. i am always happy to listen and discuss about it also, if they are. what i do not like is when persons of a religious affiliation will say they are right and nothing more, after opening the debate line in the first place, and get "offended" if i spoke my own mind... well its like, hey, u wanted this discussion, u cant just blow it off and ignore me when i have listened to you and how you feel, and not retreat behind the wall of "discriminating..." because in my mind... religious persons discriminate the non in that *hypothetical* scenario, by ignoring after being listened to

i myself was baptised methodist. i have never been to church, as a methodist, nor for worshipping purposes.
i was raised to believe in whatever i chose, what fit with my life. originally, i was christian to an extent. i believed in god, my nan was an influence on that. though being methodist, she drank (against their code thing so to speak) etc. so i cant call her devout. but it is what she believed. when she died when i was 11/12, i stopped believing, completely in god. because i was of the mind, why was she taken from me, this is utter bs, caring and loving god my ass, hes destroyed my family.

personally now, i can saw i am NOT christian, in its entirety. i am more of that religion than any other. however :
i am EXISTENTIALIST. now this is NOT a religion. it is a philosophical movement.
it revolved, more around having meaning in your own life, giving it that meaning yourself, being stable in one's self, and existence vs essence - were we born as we are, or are we affected by our surroundings, and much more. but you get the idea.
i am of the area, that believes in a possibility of life after death. though not the one that incorporates god into the philosophy.

i will always remain realistic in what i am going to say
we are our own person, it is what we choose to do in our lives that matters to us and shapes and defines us, no one else can do it for us.
when that metaphorical curtain falls, it is only us we can ever answer to.

i will quote something to you, which i find amusing from "rosencrantz and guildenstern are dead" - by tom stoppard
"life in a box"  -- what they percieve death to be. their lives are so uneventful, passed in nothingness or only given meaning by others in the play (based off of shakespeare - when they exit there, it begins here). and so, they can see no differentiation between life nor death, other than confines of a box.
something to get those mental juices flowing this morning let me know how you percieve this "life in a box" quote, i would be interested to hear


however - robb. it is YOUR life. Your beliefs, and the way you feel. it is not her life to live for you. (just dont say it like that whatever u do!)
if it isnt going to change ,and u believe strongly enough to stand by the way you feel, i would suggest tell your mum.
you cannot live a lie forever to please someone else. lies are always uncovered, the longer they go on, more it hurts, its like ripping off a plaster. but more importantly, it will hurt you in living that lie.
time is a great healer. and if ur mum loves u as a mother should, she will not begrudge you it, at least not forever, in time she will adjust.

just a wolfys thoughts.

@ Red, well we have theory's and somewhat of a minuscule proof as to the previous argument, according to the ones you put forth. With the latter, sure, it's simpler to grasp, some guy was here and he was all powerful and so he made the world and all that's in it, yet what brought him forth? An infinity of creation coming out of nothingness is less plausible than an all-powerful being who was here before us put it all together?

Well, the issue ultimately leads us back to "the old one"; what is the true nature of reality, and, with that in mind, what is its origin? Here the opinions diverge. One view is to argue that the nature or substance of reality is consciousness/qualia/spirit, and that a creator mind/spirit is all that exists, and we're parts of it. Another view is to argue, for instance, that the true nature of reality is material, and that matter came forth in the Big Bang, somehow. This latter view has two philosophical problems that haven't been properly answered yet. The first problem is that materialism cannot account for the existence of consciousness/qualia, even in principle. Daniel Dennett is at the front line of those attempts, and he has rightfully been criticized from all over the place.  Another philosophical problem with saying that materialism is true is that it forces us to ask: Why? Why should the nature of reality be material? The only really good philosophical argument is the semi-empirical one (in that matter is all that we see on a daily basis), however, that argument is at best an appeal to ignorance, and at worst a product of sheer intellectual dishonesty, as there's a lot of empirical evidence against the theory of materialism.

So to answer your specific question, under the idealst perspective, what created the creator entity is a misleading question. He wasn't created, he *is* reality. He didn't come into existence just like he'll never come out of existence. He *is* existence. He doesn't exist somewhere, or at some time. Somewhere and some time are concepts within this being. Of course, there's a lot more to be said, and there is no denying that there are good questions to be asked of the idealists. But that is a scope way beyond our debate. I'm just saying, virtually all beliefs beg questions and entail seeming contradictions.

I actually really enjoyed reading that. The discussion going on here is very stimulating to say the least ^.^

I'd also like to hear your response towards my next "topic". It's no longer relating to a "Being" or God, per-say, but rather the hypocrisy and corruption that goes along with organised religions. I'm making a reference now, to Christianity, but Catholicism mainly.

Evident in the past, and even now the Church has struck down any idea that may go against what the beloved Holy Book states, starting with the theory that the Earth was not square, but round, and then that we are not at the center of the Universe, but really far off, and that we revolve around the sun and not the other way around. The Church has continuously struck down these theories, persecuting and executing those that preach them. Then, when there is proof that go along with these theories, the Church then decided "Oh if it's true, then God made it happen". What hypocrites! This is even more evident with Charles Darwin's origin of species and natural selection. Pre-Darwin, the Catholic church said all species of anything on Earth, whether it be plant, animal, bacteria, algae, protist, were all made by God, and they were made as they were. There was no evolution evolved, and how God made them is how they are, how they always were, and how they always would be. Now with substantial evidence, made possible through our advances of science, the Church claims it was an act of God the whole time.

I wouldn't be so angered if people hadn't died for what they were saying was the truth, in the cases of the Spanish Inquisition and the others, because what they were preaching was so-called "God-Killing", but now with proof that makes the Church look like fools, people were killed for nothing and it was always an act of God?! That's bullshit.

Please excuse my run on sentences :x

I completely agree with you and I used to feel the same way. Religions, like political ideas, have historically been used as means to subjugate and control the population. I believe that after a certain period of time, it will fade into acceptance, at least it did for me; what is, simply is. It is difficult to hold faithful individuals responsible for their predecessors' mistakes, even though they support the hypocrisy to some extent, or hold the religion as a whole responsible, because some individuals abuse(d) it. All I can really say about it is that you shouldn't use the hatred against sanctimonious religious people or organizations as a reason for atheism. There are much better reasons than that.

From a deist point of view, we were created by a superior being, and after that nothing happens with him/her/it, it just goes off to do other superior being things.  One thing I don't see with the big bang is what caused the big bang.  I may not have done enough research, but I haven't seen any reason for it to have happened.

From a deist point of view, we were created by a superior being, and after that nothing happens with him/her/it, it just goes off to do other superior being things.

For me, that seems very possible. That's the explanation that makes the most sense, in my opinion.

i like the bit of superior being things amused me.